Hay personas que atraen desde la distancia porque son destellos de esperanza en un mundo mercantilizado y en una Iglesia que intenta salir del invierno. Una de esas personas es Pedro Casaldáliga, profeta envuelto en poesía, cuyas palabras sobre la sinodalidad, el papel de la mujer, la colegialidad, la corresponsabilidad, la alegría, dichas en abril, parecen haber sido escuchadas por Francisco.
En sus ojos penetrantes y corazón grande que se exterioriza en unos brazos largos y unas manos expresivas que parecen escaparse de su cuerpo menudo. El hermano parkinson le mantiene en arresto domiciliario, pero las numerosas visitas y los correos abundantes, siempre contestados, mantienen su corazón lleno de nombres y vida.
A su encuentro salimos desde Santander Ernesto Bustio, cura caminante de múltiples caminos y acogedor de peregrinos, y yo. En Madrid nos uniríamos a José Centeno, un cura casado que no cansado de recorrer y abrir surcos con semillas de compromiso social y eclesial. También nos esperaba en el aeropuerto, para hacer el viaje, Maximino Cerezo (Mino), claretiano como Casaldáliga y amigo suyo desde los años jóvenes. El Concilio Vaticano II los impulsó hacia América Latina como misioneros claretianos, el uno pronto llegaría ser Obispo en el Mato Groso de Brasil, en la prelatura de Sâo Félix, y el otro hará una gran labor de concienciación como pintor (se le conoce como el pintor de la liberación) llenando de murales diversas catedrales e Iglesias de Brasil, Nicaragua, Bolivia y otros países latinoamericanos. Casaldáliga impregnado de un Jesús Salvador que ilumina su pastoral liberadora y Cerezo plasmando, en bella pintura, caminos de liberación (…).
Desde allí nos dirigimos a la casa donde vive Pedro con la pequeña comunidad de agustinos: Paulinho, José Luis agustino de Bolivia y Joan, estudiante de teología que está haciendo un alto en el camino, un tiempo de pastoral y cuidado de Casaldáliga. Se funde en un abrazo tierno y acogedor con cada uno de nosotros. Se muestra con el encanto del anciano lleno de bondad que disfruta con los suyos, y es que somos muchos a los que nos considera y nos consideramos suyos. Ni siquiera el parkinson ha arrebatado la fuerza de sus brazos (…)
Con el sonido de fondo de unos gallos y el canto de los pájaros comenzamos la entrevista.
P.: Nos gustaría que nos hablase de las Comunidades Cristianas de Base; qué son y qué papel tienen en la renovación de la Iglesia.
Arrancan de la base, del pueblo y son la base de la Iglesia. Nosotros decimos en Brasil que se trata de un nuevo modo de ser Iglesia, yo añadí: de un nuevo modo de toda la Iglesia ser. El Obispo Leonardo se alarmó un poco. Pedro, me dijo, eso es una ilusión. Sería el modo de ser la Iglesia: comunitario, fiel, uniendo la fe a la vida, con la Biblia en las manos del pueblo, con capacidad de diálogo, teniendo en cuenta el ecumenismo; siempre hemos dicho que se dará si se da el diálogo del pueblo con la cultura. Ahora el desafío es la convivencia, la convivencia es el desafío en todos los campos: en la familia, en el vecindario, en el trabajo, en la comunidad eclesial, la convivencia es el gran desafío. Los indios Minky dicen que “vivir es convivir”.
La convivencia supone que nos situemos en la Iglesia en una actitud de igualdad; de igual a igual con las otras Iglesias, con las otras religiones, con las otras espiritualidades, con la humanidad. Hemos de partir de esa visión macroecuménica, en vez de partir de una actitud replegada sobre sí misma; partir de una visión abierta en comunión con todos los otros movimientos, espiritualidades y religiones. Hemos de explicitar nuestra fe no como imponiendo una superioridad sino contribuyendo con la concreta historia de Jesús de Nazaret.
P.: En España las comunidades de base no son mayoritarias; son grupos reducidos con una conciencia especial, con una conciencia crítica, utópica y transformadora; la parroquia es otra cosa. ¿Qué papel puede jugar la parroquia, sería ideal toda ella fuese comunidad?
Debería ser toda ella comunidad. Yo digo que no se trata de discutir si son tantas o cuantas; se trata de que todo sea comunidad; me gusta hablar de comunitariedad, que todo sea comunitario desde el Papa, que todo sea participativo, que, desde la propia situación de cada uno, todo sea contribución al conjunto. Las parroquias como parroquia no tienen futuro. Estos días la CNBB (Conferencia Episcopal de Brasil) está discutiendo sobre “Comunidad de Comunidades, una nueva Parroquia”.
Está comprobado que la parroquia como tal se transforma en burocracia y no estimula la participación real; se entiende, por otra parte, que sea necesario una referencia jurídica, diríamos canónica. Que sean grupos pequeños forma parte de la condición de semilla, fermento, sal. Yo creo que se ha superado ya la fase más rabiosa de relación entre comunidades y obispos; hemos aprendido bastante a convivir; todavía falta mucho, pero ya hay menos episcopalitis aguda. Si el obispo o el cura no nos acepta, pues muy bien, no nos vamos a perder por eso. La indignación ha de ser una indignación esperanzada, de lo contrario estamos vomitando bilis por todas partes y no tenemos nada de buena noticia. El cristianismo es algo más, no se trata de vivir la vida amargada, fiscalizada.
Los llamados Nuevos Movimientos en la Iglesia se llaman comunidades. ¿Cuál sería el fallo fundamental de estos nuevos movimientos en el tema de ser comunidad? Y otra cuestión más: ¿Se puede ser comunidad cristiana no política?
La fe sin política no es fe cristiana. Por lo que respecta a los nuevos movimientos yo he vivido un detalle interesante en Honduras. Estábamos en Cuaresma, la cocinera de los claretianos nos dijo que era neocatecumenal y añadió: “nosotros celebramos la Eucaristía, ustedes celebran la Misa”; si se niegan a participar de la vida de la parroquia en ciertos momentos, en ciertas cosas; ahí también dejarían de ser Iglesia. Yo digo a los amigos y amigas que hay que participar de la misa del cura al menos una vez por mes; es la contribución a los ancianos y ancianas que participan todas las semanas, levantarles el ánimo; negarse me parece que es una actitud anticristiana.
P.: ¿Podría explicar un poco más el que no puede haber fe sin política?
No puede haber fe cristiana sin encarnación; encarnación es el misterio de la entrada de Dios, de lleno, en nuestra humanidad por medio de Jesús de Nazaret, y eso supone que asumamos los desafíos de cada día. Todo es política, aunque la política no lo sea todo. Jesús dijo que había venido para que todos tuvieran vida, y la tuvieran en abundancia. Si no me preocupo de la tierra, de la salud, de la educación, de las comunicaciones, incluso de las vacaciones para descansar, no me estoy preocupando de la vida humana. La vida en el otro mundo es un asunto de Dios, que Él resolverá muy bien, porque allí habrá vida y vida en abundancia para todos. A nosotros nos toca mejorar la vida y universalizar la vida aquí, en este mundo. Y si la Iglesia, el Papa, los obispos, los sacerdotes, las monjas y todos aquellos que queremos ser seguidores de Jesús no hacemos política, no impulsamos las consecuencias sociales, políticas y económicas que tiene la fe, ¿qué testimonio de amor damos?
P.: Tú antes distinguías entre comunitariedad y comunidad.
Es una actitud de participación, de corresponsabilidad, que el Papa sea el Obispo de Roma, que los obispos participen realmente de la colegialidad que ahora no existe, corresponsabilidad de todos y todas. Una actitud comunitaria en la propia familia, en el trabajo; un párroco no debería decidir nada por sí sólo y un padre de familia tampoco.
P.: Actualmente todos los Consejos de tipo pastoral, al menos en España, son sólo consultivos. Hay laicos que se enfadan y dicen: “yo para dar una palabra y después no entrar en las decisiones finales prefiero no entrar en el tinglado”.
Y tienen toda la razón. Los Sínodos son un fracaso; el propio cardenal Arns, que fue arzobispo de Sâo Paulo, y que participaba de los Sínodos, nos dijo en una asamblea de los obispos de Brasil que el Sínodo es un fracaso por ser sólo consultivo; los obispos hablan y a continuación la Curia lo amaña a su modo y aparece, después de dos o tres años, un documento firmado por el Papa que ni lo leemos. No fue participativo y está fuera de hora y de lugar. Cuando se está pidiendo estos días la reforma de la Curia muchos insisten en este aspecto: que los sínodos sean de participación, de colegialidad, de corresponsabilidad.
P.: El problema que tenemos, apunta José Centeno, es que las comunidades en España son todas de personas mayores y no hay de jóvenes, entran pocos jóvenes, entonces nos planteamos: ¿no sabemos, no les damos espacio…?
Se trata de ser comprensivos con ellos, hay que reconocer que están viviendo un proceso personal y de grupo que antes no se imaginaba; toda la problemática sexual antes se vivía clandestinamente, ahora con la puerta abierta; la autoridad paterna se discute hoy; el padre y la madre, los formadores no pueden sentirse decepcionados, han de estimular la crítica, la indignación; pero dando testimonio y actuando ellos, también, en familia de una manera participativa.
P.: Hay grupos de jóvenes, continúa Centeno, yo tengo dos hijos de 36 y 34 años, que estuvieron en la JEC, participaron en grupos reivindicativos de la Universidad, en asociaciones varias, siempre han sido muy participativos en grupos de solidaridad, en movimientos feministas, junto con otros jóvenes allí en Valladolid, muchos de ellos sin trabajo. Son un grupo muy interesante, pero desde el punto de vista de lo religioso y de la fe están alejados; no practican pero están abiertos, no tienen inconveniente en participar con comunidades de cristianos o Justicia y Paz o los Círculos de Silencio; sin embargo a la Iglesia la ven como dos Iglesias, la oficial con todas las connotaciones negativas que tiene en España y por otra parte la gente cristiana que están, estamos colaborando en todo, mayores y jóvenes; pero formar una comunidad cristiana con ellos es más complicado.
Que participen en todo lo que sea justicia y paz. Se les puede pedir, también, un poco de comprensión, porque a veces una actitud radicalmente negativa casi puede llegar a ser infantil. No se trata de hacer iglesias paralelas; pero se trata de poder vivir la fe paralelamente con celebraciones, con gestos de solidaridad, con actitud de respeto.
Lo que sí es cierto en los jóvenes que se han formado en grupos cristianos de base es que Jesús los sigue atrayendo.
Hay que partir de ahí; pero tienen que vivirlo en comunidad. Hay que convencerlos de quesin comunidad ninguna actividad humana funciona. No se trata de someterse a la parroquia. Se puede vivir paralelamente y de vez en cuando dar una contribución y un tiempo a la comunidad cristiana donde viven o se sienten cercanos. Que no den excesiva importancia al sacerdote, que intenten vivir su fe comunitariamente entre iguales. La organización eclesial no debe ser un impedimento insalvable para vivir la fe en Jesús comunitariamente.
P.: Yo sí estoy de acuerdo con lo que usted dice. Es verdad que simplemente admirar a Jesús si no se vive comunitariamente hay un déficit muy fuerte. Pero, ¿cómo superar la mala imagen que tienen de la Iglesia?
Se está mejor hoy, la Iglesia está mejor hoy que ayer. Incluso entre los obispos conservadores hay una tolerancia a la juventud. Los que condenan la teología de la liberación y se quedan al margen. Alguno de los que eran candidatos a Papa ha dicho varias veces que la teología de la liberación ha muerto, a mi nunca me pasaron la noticia del óbito. No hemos de amargarnos, hay que dar una contribución de paz y esperanza; una esperanza contra toda esperanza, que es la nuestra, una Esperanza Pascual, que pasa por la cruz, pero es una esperanza invencible.
Yo cito siempre aquellas palabras de un soldado español: “¿Quién dijo miedo habiendo hospitales?”, y si fuera más optimista diría ¿Quién dijo miedo habiendo cementerios?, y si fuera más optimista diría ¿Quién dijo miedo habiendo Pascua? Somos el pueblo de la esperanza, el pueblo de la Pascua; nuestra fe cristiana es esperanza, es confianza. Esperanza confiada en el Dios de la vida, del amor, de la libertad, de la paz, en su Reino.
P.: Partiendo de que Dios habla a través de los hechos, de la historia y que los hechos son tozudos, ¿qué querrá decirnos en estos momentos con la falta de vocaciones al sacerdocio, por lo menos en Europa?
Aquí todavía hay ciertas vocaciones. Hay que revisar todo este asunto de los ministerios, desde el Papa hasta el último cristiano, el sacerdocio célibe ha de ser una opción, la mujer ha de tener todo el derecho; resulta dramático y ridículo que se quiera argumentar con el Evangelio para impedir a la mujer la participación plena. No fue Jesús quien dijo que debían de ser doce hombres, hay situaciones culturales que afectan hoy a la Iglesia. La humanidad ha sido muy machista y así continúa, casi todas las culturas son machistas.
P.: Hay un teólogo español, no sé si le suena, Martínez Gordo, que dice que uno de los males fundamentales de la Iglesia es la marcada división sacerdotes-laicos.
Hay que insistir en la Iglesia ministerial. Se ha hecho del ministerio la esencia de la ley cristiana cuando el ministerio es sólo un servicio. El bautismo, la inserción en la comunidad de Jesús, eso es la Iglesia. Cambiará todo lo que ahora estamos reclamando y que parece imposible realizarse; cambiará con respecto a la mujer, con respecto a la división sacerdote-laico, con respecto a la visión de la sexualidad, con respecto al diálogo ecuménico. Ya está cambiando en parte.
P.: ¿Por lo que conoce con del Papa nuevo y de Latinoamérica, ¿cree que será capaz de romper con la curia o de organizar de una forma distinta el gobierno de la Iglesia?
No va a ser fácil, no nos podemos hacer la ilusión de que desmonte toda la curia, pero está introduciendo cuñas; el nombramiento del superior general de los franciscanos para el Dicasterio de la vida religiosa me parece un paso, es un recado que pasa; si se mete con otros cargos fuertes de la curia en una línea así ya se verá lo que sucede. Es necesario hacer la transición de una época integrista, autoritaria, de tener toda la verdad, a una época de diálogo; hoy día, para muchos, es fundamental que se equiparen todas las religiones.
P.: es muy importante no sólo el ecumenismo entre cristianos sino el diálogo con todas las religiones, pero hay cierto miedo a diluirse por parte de los responsables jerárquicos.
Eso fue una angustia de Benedicto XVI, un miedo a que se diluyese la Iglesia durante su mandato. El diálogo interreligioso supone un cierto coraje para superar la actitud de teologar con cierta naturalidad diciendo que “fuera de la Iglesia no hay salvación”; ahora de repente nos dicen que hay salvación en todas partes. Yo digo que sólo la Iglesia es Iglesia cuando salva, cuando anuncia la Buena Nueva, cuando estimula la participación fraterna. El mundo es plural, Dios es mayor que todas las religiones. Es evidente que hay que saber conjugar una actitud de dialogo abierto y una actitud de libertad en la propia identidad; no se trata de ser católicos vergonzantes sino de vivir con naturalidad y elegancia la propia fe. Sólo hay diálogo con una actitud adulta contribuyendo con tu identidad a la identidad de los demás.
P.: Usted sigue estando muy al día en teología; ¿qué teólogos españoles sigue, lee más?
González Faus, Queiruga…
P.: Queiruga es amigo nuestro, estudió con nosotros.
Es una gran figura, de los mejores teólogos españoles. Ha tenido la suerte de tener dos obispos amigos, y por eso no lo han condenado abiertamente, creo que eran compañeros de estudios y que lo respaldaban; también él es muy gallego y sabe decir las cosas.
P.: Además es un hombre de Dios, que es muy importante.
Eso es lo que hay que decir a la juventud: que hay que orar, hay que vivir en contemplación. Hay que dar gracias a los que nos han recordado la importancia del Espíritu que habita en nosotros, el Espíritu con dos alas, el ala de la contemplación y la del impulso hacia la vida.
Hubo una época, los primeros años de la Teología de la Liberación, eran años de revolución marxista en América Latina, la Iglesia vivía amancebada con el Estado, aquellos que tenían conciencia revolucionaria renegaban de esa Iglesia. Ahora con ocasión del nuevo Papa ha salido por todas partes la actitud de la jerarquía argentina. ¡Cuánto les costó a los obispos argentinos reconocer que Angelelli era mártir!, ¡cuánto les costó reconocer que fue el ejército el que lo mató! Tuvimos unos actos con ocasión del aniversario de Angelelli, en Argentina, y sólo había dos obispos.
P.: Volviendo a Torres Queiruga y estos pocos teólogos que no son dogmáticos, dialogan con los hombres de ciencia sin voluntad impositiva, con el mundo moderno de mentalidad ilustrada, intentan dar razones de su fe. Yo, continúa José Centeno, después de jubilarme he estado yendo a cursos de historia en la universidad de Valladolid, sobre todo de historia contemporánea cuando preparaba el libro sobre curas obreros. Yo veía allí, en el mundo de los profesores, que hay un descrédito con respecto a la Iglesia, porque cuando aparecen los obispos no dan razones, no son racionales, son tajantes. En la universidad no se admiten esas posturas.
Tienen toda la razón en no admitir esas posturas.
P.: Cuando salió el libro, el profesor me invitó a hablar del libro en una clase. Mi hijo trabaja en Comisiones Obreras, en una fundación de ayuda a sindicalistas del Tercer Mundo, tienen un ateneo cultural; entonces me preguntó mi hijo: “¿porqué no presentamos el libro en el ateneo?” Yo le dije que este tema de curas no iba a interesar mucho en ese foro. Sí, sí, me contestó. Y lo acogieron muy bien, fue mucha gente. Fueron muchos de Comisiones, antiguos militantes, antiguos militantes jocistas. Lo que yo quiero decir es que hay un alejamiento en parte sólo. A veces llevan a la universidad a algunos teólogos, hace poco ha estado Juan José Tamayo; pero quieren personas que den razones de las cosas y no sean tajantes, esto no lo soportan en el mundo de la universidad.
Hemos de reconocer abiertamente los fallos de la Iglesia, las inconsecuencias de la Iglesia, no podemos justificar lo injustificable; pero se trata de decir, también, que hay mucha Iglesia y que es honesta, es consecuente.
P.: Sí que saben ver lo positivo. Con frecuencia, desde hace unos años, los periodistas sí hacen distinción, hablan de esos misioneros que están en África y son los últimos que se van cuando hay serios peligros; hacen una cierta distinción, lo tratan como una honrosa excepción de algunos, los de abajo.
Tienen ganas de un diálogo de verdad. En el fondo todo el mundo es capaz de tener una actitud lúcida. Yo veo que aceptan que se cuestione tanto la creencia como la increencia. Por eso decía yo que estamos hoy mejor que ayer. Hay que evitar el espíritu triunfalista, pero hay que evitar, también, el espíritu derrotista y volver a Jesús de Nazaret. El seguimiento es la mejor definición de la espiritualidad cristiana, el seguimiento de Jesús con la opción por los pobres, el diálogo abierto, la solidaridad.
P.: En todo lo que usted nos ha estado diciendo hay algo claro: no hay fe sin política, no hay fe aislada sino comunitaria, es muy importante juntarse para orar con cura o sin cura. ¿Qué importancia da usted a lo que decía Rhaner sobre el cristiano del siglo XXI que será místico o no será?, ¿qué importancia da a la oración, a ser contemplativos?
Se ha ganado en el mundo en personalismo, entendido en la línea de Mounier, y ese personalismo auténtico exige interioridad, contemplación. Se puede hacer, se debe hacer comunitariamente, por eso hay que estimular las celebraciones en grupos pequeños, hay que estimular ciertos movimientos. Nos preguntábamos respecto a la base de la Jornada Mundial de la Juventud, es ambigua; por un lado se puede criticar una voluntad triunfalista de la Iglesia, juntar todos los millones posibles para llenar el espacio; pero hay elementos positivos. Lo que dificulta es que tenemos una Iglesia que es Estado y el Papa es jefe de Estado y eso, de entrada, ya provoca unos tropiezos insuperables; la reforma de la Curia debería tener, como primer paso, la automática desaparición del Estado Vaticano y el Papa dejar de ser Jefe de Estado. Esto debería ser elemental, basta pensar un poco en las otras religiones. ¿Qué significa que por ser Jefe de Estado se ponga todo el país patas arriba?
Mino Cerezo: yo no te pregunto, yo las preguntas me las hago a mí mismo. Yo me digo que, en el fondo, el problema no es creer en Jesús, sino creer como creyó Jesús; me parece que no entramos por ahí. Para creer como creyó Jesús es importante el tema de la oración, porque Jesús creía pensando en los demás, oraba pensando en los demás. Subía al monte sólo, dejaba a los apóstoles, se pasaba la noche entera, pero volvía a estar con la gente, a anunciar el Reino de Dios, es decir, colocaba la oración en el horizonte de la praxis, y eso me parece que nos está faltando. La gente joven cree en Jesús, pero mi pregunta es para ellos y para nosotros, los viejos. ¿Estamos creyendo como Jesús, no sólo en Jesús?
Pensando en las camisetas, es fácil llevar a Jesús en el pecho, lo difícil es tener pecho, coraje para seguir a Jesús
– See more at: http://blog.cristianismeijusticia.net/?p=10051&lang=es#more-10051
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