Entrevista a Teresa Forcades y Esther Vivas

La doctora en Salud Pública por la Universidad de Barcelona, Teresa Forcades, monja benedictina en el monasterio de Sant Benet de Montserrat, y la periodista y activista Esther Vivas conversan en el libro Sense por (sin miedo) que acaba publicar Icaria Editorial. Ambas coinciden en la iniciativa del Procés Constituent, un movimiento que fue impulsado hace unos meses por la propia Forcades y el economista Arcadi Oliveres, vinculado a los colectivos cristianos de defensa de los Derechos Humanos, con la voluntad de crear una organización de izquierdas lo más unitaria posible que concurra a las próximas elecciones autonómicas. Este domingo celebran en Barcelona un acto central de presentación que se prevé multitudinario.

¿Por qué ‘Sense por’?

Esther Vivas (E.V.): Porque pensamos que la gente está, parcialmente, comenzando a perder el miedo. Durante mucho tiempo nos han querido hacer creer que no había alternativas, que no se podía hacer nada para cambiar las cosas y, en estos momentos de situación crisis tan profunda, la gente empieza a ver la cara real del sistema capitalista. Hoy se ve que el capitalismo es incompatible con la vida, con la cobertura de las necesidades básicas de la gente y las personas se dan cuenta que esto no es solamente una crisis, sino que es una estafa, que nos han robado.

En los últimos tiempos hemos visto como la gente ha empezado a desobedecer masivamente. El propio 15-M fue un acto de desobediencia civil masiva. Hemos visto cómo la gente ocupa viviendas vacías de bancos y se las da a personas que han sido desahuciadas. La gente ocupa los vestíbulos de los hospitales, escuelas, supermercados… y estas acciones cuentan con el apoyo de amplios sectores de la sociedad, que está más de acuerdo con aquellos que ocupan, se indignan, se rebelan y desobedecen que con los que recortan. Por eso decimos «sin miedo», porque la gente está empezando a perder el miedo ya desafiar al poder. Ante la legalidad del sistema anteponemos la legitimidad de la calle, de la lucha y de los derechos y las necesidades de la gente.

Hablan de crisis del capitalismo, pero siempre se ha salido de crisis anteriores. ¿También se saldrá de esta?

Teresa Forcades (TF): El capitalismo crea estas crisis de forma continuada. No se pueden considerar una sorpresa. El ciclo capitalista se basa en una explotación humana y de los recursos que genera estas crisis y que se pueden analizar en el curso de la Historia. En este momento, la diferencia es que algunos de los recursos planetarios están a punto de desaparecer y, por tanto, desde el punto de vista ambiental -a no ser que se descubra una nueva fuente de energía o un nuevo planeta, algo que ha pasado antes en la Historia- hay un límite. En esta cuestión ambiental hemos tocado techo.

En la cuestión social, desgraciadamente el capitalismo se puede inventar un nuevo sistema para continuar tratando a las personas como mercancías y, por tanto, no estaríamos ante la última crisis del capitalismo.

¿La democracia actual permite el éxito de propuestas alternativas como la vuestra?

TF: En el marco del capitalismo, no. Nuestra propuesta tendrá éxito si es capaz de impulsar y activar la subjetividad política de la mayoría social descontenta por una ruptura. Lo que debe estar muy claro es que el proyecto que proponemos de democracia real es inviable en el marco capitalista. El motivo no es otro que la premisa del capitalismo que el poder político debe estar sometido al económico. Si permitimos esto, es imposible la democracia real.

El libro habla de «vencedores y perdedores». ¿De momento, los vencedores son los que conforman el llamado 1% de la sociedad?

EV: Con las políticas actuales somos una gran mayoría los que salimos perdiendo, y hay una minoría, unas élites políticas y económicas, que están salido beneficiadas y que están utilizando la crisis como una oportunidad para recortar derechos sociales, laborales, económicos, democráticos. Incluso podríamos decir que las políticas que hoy se están aplicando han sido largamente planificadas y que utilizan la crisis como excusa.

Pero la gente se está dando cuenta de todo ello: que el Estado español es uno de los países donde las diferencias entre ricos y pobres son de las más grandes de Europa. Vemos como el hambre, que siempre habíamos asociado a los países del Sur, comienza a golpear a nuestra puerta. En Cataluña, el informe del Síndic (defensor del pueblo) contabilizaba 50.000 niños malnutridos, porque muchas familias no tienen los ingresos mínimos necesarios para comprar los alimentos que necesitan sus hijos para poder llevar a cabo una dieta sana, saludable y equilibrada. Estamos empezando a ver situaciones que asociábamos a países del Sur y que ahora pasan aquí. Pasa como consecuencia de las políticas que se hacen para salir de la crisis. Y, mientras tanto, unas minorías económicas están ganando mucho dinero con esta situación.

TF: Parece que el marxismo es un anacronismo. Nos dicen que ahora no hay una clase que posee los medios de producción y una clase trabajadora, que ahora sólo hay clase alta y clase baja. La confrontación económica oscurece la realidad. Es muy diferente tener la propiedad de los medios de producción que depender de la venta de tu capacidad de trabajo para tener un sueldo y lo que necesitas para vivir.

Si permites que haya la distribución entre personas que tienen la propiedad y otros que tienen que vender su capacidad de trabajo, se está generando una divisoria, que engendra después la acumulación de capital, que comenzó el siglo XVII y que hoy en día está en unos niveles que no se puede acumular mucho más. El 1% frente al 99% o como lo queramos expresar.

Esta lucha de clases existe y se debe hacer conscientemente. Y no hay que tener miedo a apelar a esta descripción por el fantasma de la realización histórica del marxismo en la Unión Soviética, donde hubo una dictadura. Mi postura personal es ir a favor de la iniciativa privada pero que se sitúe en un marco de procesos cooperativos, que no tiene nada que ver con el capitalismo y tampoco con que un comité central te diga qué tienes que hacer y aún menos que todos tengamos que estar a sueldo de un Estado paternalista.

¿Han perdido fuerza los movimientos sociales? Puede parecerlo.

TF: No lo sé. En mi ámbito teológico, escucho a menudo pronosticar la muerte de la teología de la liberación. En cambio, hay otros analistas que me gustan más que dicen que, en todo caso, ha muerto de éxito, porque ha generado en Latinoamérica, que es donde fue más fuerte, unos procesos de cambio político real que afectan no sólo a las comunidades eclesiales sino a toda la sociedad, y que han nacido del impulso que dieron estas comunidades de base.

En nuestro contexto, ocurre algo parecido. Puedes preguntarte dónde están las asambleas del 15-M, pero ahora estamos en un momento de movilización social mucho más alto. Tenemos el país en resistencia. Lo que pasa es que los medios de comunicación lo intentan presentar de otra manera. Si cada día nos informaran de las iniciativas que hay a nivel local tendríamos una visión muy diferente.

Estamos en un momento en que las cosas hierven y es un momento fuerte para los movimientos sociales y las iniciativas que reivindican justicia social. Y la oportunidad es que todo esto es vehicule hacia una alternativa política viable.

A entrevista completa neste enlace: http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/poderosos-miedo-enfrenten-desobediencia-organizada_0_183382504.html

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