Eduardo Lallana y Charo Garcia de la Rosa –presidente y vocal de la ONG soriana “Tierra sin males”- han estado visitando São Felix de Araguaja en el Estado de Mato Grosso, Brasil donde Tierra sin males esta desarrollando un proyecto, financiado por la Diputacion Provincial de Soria, para reducir la desnutricion y mortalidad infantil. Allí han convivido y entrevistado a D. Pedro Casaldáliga, dos veces candidato a Premio Nobel de la Paz, obispo emérito de São Felix, místico, poeta, uno de los lideres de la teologia de la liberación y una figura internacional en la defensa de los Derechos Humanos.
P: Se le han hecho muchas entrevistas a D. Pedro en las cuales ha expresado su pensamiento, su toma de postura ante la situación mundial, ante los problemas y desafíos de la Iglesia. Por eso queremos que esta entrevista sea algo diferente, tenga alguna peculiaridad. Queremos penetrar más en el corazón de la persona, del pastor, místico, del poeta. Pedro, muchas gracias por concedernos esta oportunidad.
P: ¿Cual seria el lema de tu vida?
R: Relativizar lo que es relativo y absolutizar lo que es absoluto.
P: Y para ti ¿qué es absoluto?
R: Tengo un poemita que dice, “que todo es relativo, menos Dios y el hambre”.
P: ¿Qué dos o tres frases o pasajes del Evangelio son los que más han influido en tu vida, los que más has meditado, los que más te han guiado en tu vida, en todo tu quehacer pastoral?
R: ”Dios es amor“, y “de tal modo amó Dios al mundo que le envió su Hijo no para condenar al mundo sino para salvarlo”.
P: Hablamos de tus guías, de tus maestros espirituales, aquellas personas que han iluminado tu camino además de esta fuente evangélica.
R: Evidentemente Jesús de Nazareth, Francisco de Asis, Teresa de Lisieux, Carlos de Foucault, y formadores que he tenido a lo largo de los estudios eclesiásticos, compañeros del episcopado, aquí en América Latina.
P: Eres conocido por tu alma de poeta. Si tuvieras que elegir dentro de la literatura universal ¿cual seria uno o varios de tus poetas preferidos?
R: San Juan de la Cruz, Antonio Machado
P: Lo tienes muy claro.
R: Clarísimo.
P: ¿Si tuvieras que elegir algún poema?
R: El propio autorretrato de Antonio Machado, La secuencia de Pascua y otro poema inmortal para mi, el Cant Espiritual de Joan Maragal
P: Somos humanos, estamos hechos de virtudes y defectos. ¿Tu mayor defecto?
R: La impaciencia.
P: ¿Tu mayor virtud?
R: La esperanza.
P: Según tu, ¿el gran pecado del mundo de hoy?
R: El Capitalismo neoliberal.
P: ¿Y uno de los pecados importantes de la Iglesia santa y pecadora?
R: La falta de capacidad para unirse las iglesias, absolutizando lo que no es absoluto, y no respondiendo al testamento de Jesús, “que todo sean uno.”
P: Entrando más en aspectos personales de tu vida, ¿El momento más triste de tu vida?
R: No sabría decirlo…por eso de relativizar lo que es relativo, el momento de la muerte de mi padre, de mi madre, muerte de lideres, militantes, agentes de pastoral. Son momentos tristes, pero como la esperanza continua no llega a ser un drama, una tragedia. No creo que pueda decir que he vivido tristezas mayores. Relativizar porque la esperanza continua dando garantía posterior a todos los fracasos, a todas las decepciones. Yo digo en un lugar de un diario mió. “Dios es amor, nosotros somos amor, traición y miedo, pero también esperanza” y esa esperanza resuelve todas las decepciones y todas las tristezas, todos los fracasos.
P: Por contraste, ¿los momentos más felices de tu vida?
R: Cada vez que veo que una comunidad, un líder que asume su misión, asume sus causas, cada vez que veo que hay comunidades, personas, capaces de solidaridad, arriesgando incluso la propia vida. El testimonio de nuestros mártires.
P: Sabemos que has sido perseguido, amenazado de muerte en varias ocasiones, ¿cuando realmente temiste por tu vida?
R: Durante la dictadura militar, ha habido bastantes momentos. Con ocasión de la muerte del padre Juan Bosco Penido Burnier: la bala iba para mí. Yo tengo el poder de olvidar lo malo y cuando miro hacia atrás nunca podía decir, como decida la famosa película, “mirando hacia atrás con ira “. No. Ese absoluto que es Dios resuelve todos esos problemas y todas las tristezas y decepciones.
P: Hablando de decepciones, ¿la mayor decepción en tu vida?
R: Mayor ninguna, porque seria una decepción mayor llegar a un túnel sin salida, pero la salida está siempre por delante. No puedo hablar de decepciones mayores: políticos amigos que han fallado, proyectos militantes o pastorales que han fallado, pero lo relativizo.
P: ¿Tus tres mayores deseos?
R: Que se acabe el hambre en el mundo, que se acabe la fabricación de armas, la carrera armamentista, que se acabe la guerra sobre todo esa guerra por religión o respaldada por religiones.
P: ¿Tus tres mayores preocupaciones?
R: Que la iglesia, las iglesias, no se unan, que no seamos capaces de administrar este mundo que daría para todos y tengamos que seguir viviendo en medio de una humanidad, cuyas dos terceras partes, no tienen el derecho a vivir. Y en el cada día, los fallos sobre todos nuestros y de los agentes de pastoral.
P: Mirando para atrás en tu vida, ¿tu mayor error?
R: No haber sido lo bastante comprensivo en muchas ocasiones.
P: ¿De que te arrepientes?
R: De muchas cosas. De todo un poco. Podía haberlo hecho mejor, con más esperanza incluso, con más sencillez, con mayor generosidad. Yo recuerdo siempre la frase de aquel santo que decía que cuando se presentase delante de Dios le pediría: “olvídate de mis buenas obras, vamos a hablar solo de mis fracasos, de mis pecados que eso tu lo sabes resolver muy bien, olvídate de mis buenas obras.”
P: Una de tus características más destacadas, ha sido la relación con los pueblos indígenas. ¿Qué has aprendido en esta experiencia con ellos?
R: La convivencia con la naturaleza, un cierto sentido de comunitariedad, relativizar también muchas cosas que nuestra civilización considera absolutas.
P: ¿Podrías recordar cuándo, cómo y si hubo algún momento especial en el que hiciste esa opción
por los pobres que ha guiado y marcado tu existencia?
R: En mi infancia oí muchas veces de mi padre y de mi madre: “Nosotros somos pobres”. Ya inculcado en la infancia, poco después con contactos, con análisis, convivencias religiosas he ido sintiendo realmente que la opción por los pobres ha de ser opción fundamental para la Iglesia. Una opción que defina a la Iglesia recordando aquella frase de Van-der Meerch: “La verdad, Pilatos, es estar del lado de los pobres “. Para la Iglesia también.
P: ¿Cuales son, según tú, los tres grandes retos o desafíos que tiene planteados la Iglesia del tercer milenio?
R: El ecumenismo y el macro ecumenismo. La pobreza estructural de sus instituciones. La profecía contra sistemas, estructuras que matan, que excluyen, que prohíben. Entonces seria, la unión de las propias iglesias, la profecía diaria, una profecía que denuncia, anuncia y consuela.
P: En la hipótesis de que fueras nombrado Papa, ¿cuales serian las tres decisiones primeras y más importantes que tomarías?
R: Estamos en el chiste, ¿no? La primera seria suprimir el estado Pontificio y que el Papa dejase de ser Jefe de Estado. La segunda, poner en suspenso, en entredicho la curia romana, y tercera convocar un encuentro llámenle Concilio, si quieren, verdaderamente ecuménico, para rehacer totalmente la curia romana, para redefinir el ministerio de Pedro y para proponerse con seriedad la inculturación de los diferentes pueblos y la relativización de lo que es relativo, que podía ser el propio celibato sacerdotal, legislaciones rígidas, en el derecho canónico, a veces en liturgia, en pastoral.
P: Llama la atención en tu vida el hecho de que siendo Obispo no hayas empleado nunca los símbolos del poder episcopal. ¿Cual es la motivación ultima y profunda, de que nunca haya usado la mitra, el báculo? ¿Cual es la raíz ultima y profunda de esas decisiones tuyas?
R: Con todo respeto a los hermanos que la usan, creo que no son símbolos ni gestos evangélicos. Están vinculados a un estatus y seria lo más lógico prescindir de escudo, prescindir de mitra, de báculo, y celebrar las eucaristías con simplicidad. No creo que le hagan ningún bien a la Iglesia, toda esa simbología.
P: Según tu ¿cual es la virtud humana que más valoras?
R: La coherencia.
P: ¿Y la virtud evangélica?
R: La esperanza.
P: ¿Te gustaría ser recordado como ,,,,?
R: Como alguien que cree que Dios nos salva a todos y lo salva todo.
P: ¿Para ti ser un hombre o una mujer espiritual es…?
R: Vivir en profundidad, asumir opciones dignas de una vida humana. Ser coherente, abrirse a las necesidades del prójimo. Celebrar la vida.
P: Ahora te voy a plantear algunas palabras sueltas y te pediría que espontáneamente respondieses con ese fogonazo de tu mente y de tu corazón. Algunas relativas a la geografía.
P: África
R: La mayor deuda de la humanidad.
P: América Latina
R: Mi segunda patria.
P: Cataluña
R: La familia, la lengua, el paisaje.
P: Brasil
R: Una casa de ultima hora y definitiva.
P: Araguaia
R: Nuestro rio.
P: Soria
R: Antonio Machado, “Tierra sin males“, solidaridad.
P: Injusticia
R: La negación del amor.
P: El llamado tercer mundo
R: Un escándalo en la historia humana. Porque tercer mundo por definición significa un mundo prohibido, marginado, explotado, inferior.
P: Primer mundo
R: La prepotencia, el lucro, el egoísmo, el consumismo, el imperialismo.
P: Libertad.
R: la posibilidad de vencer el miedo, la posibilidad de ser lo que se es, la posibilidad de ayudar a cuantos viven sin libertad.
P: Movimiento de los sin tierra.
R: Hoy día, el mayor movimiento popular social de América Latina.
P: Latifundio
R: Una iniquidad, el abuso de la tierra de todos, el egoísmo estructural en el campo.
P: Globalización
R: La transformación de la humanidad en mercado.
P: Solidaridad
R: Como dice la poeta nicaragüense: “la ternura de los pueblos“. La caridad estructurada de pueblo para pueblo.
P: Guerra
R: La negación de la vida.
P: Bien. Ahora, también con unas palabras, sugiero que evoques tu pensar, tu sentir, sobre algunos personajes.
P: Lula
R Una experiencia, obrera, política, importante para América Latina. Una cierta decepción, quizás porque exigimos lo que de momento no se puede exigir, pero en todo caso en la historia de Brasil, en la historia de América Latina, habrá sido un paso político importante.
P: Busch
R: Una epidemia mundial.
P: Fidel Castro
R: Un gran estadista, un padre de la patria latino americana, pero al mismo tiempo, autoritario, imperialista, que quizás no ha sabido abrir los espacios que debería haber abierto para democratizar más las conquistas de salud, de educación que Cuba hizo, que seria un testimonio más accesibles a los otros pueblos.
P: Evo Morales
R: Una victoria de los pueblos indígenas después de 500 años de prohibición, de exclusión,
P: Y para ir terminando ¿qué te sugiere estas palabras?
P: Vida Eterna
R: La convivencia plena con el Dios vivo, y con todos los hijos e hijas de Dios.
P: Vida Plena
R: A partir de la palabra de Jesús: “que todos tengan vida y la tengan en abundancia “, vida plena, aquí del lado de acá de la muerte, siempre es una vida relativa, pero en esperanza: vamos a la vida eterna plena
P: Y la ultima pregunta; ¿Lo que ha dado sentido a tu vida?
R: La buena nueva del Evangelio.
P: Muchas gracias Pedro ha sido un placer disfrutar de tu compañía, de tu cariño, de tu sabiduría, de tu mística.
R. Gracias por esta solidaridad, y concretamente por la solidaridad de Soria, Soria fría decía Machado, Soria caliente de solidaridad.
Sao Felix de Araguaia, Mato Grosso. Brasil. 10 de Enero de 2007;
Eduardo Lallana y Charo Garcia de la Rosa.
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