“Los cristianos perseguidos son una preocupación que me toca de cerca como pastor. Sé muchas cosas de persecuciones que no me parece prudente contarlas aquí para no ofender a nadie. Pero en algún sitio está prohibido tener una Biblia o enseñar catecismo o llevar una cruz… Lo que sí quiero dejar claro una cosa: estoy convencido de que la persecución contra los cristianos hoy es más fuerte que en los primeros siglos de la Iglesia. Hoy hay más cristianos mártires que en aquella época. Y no es por fantasía, es por números”.
El papa Francisco nos recibió el pasado lunes en el Vaticano –un día después de la oración por la paz con los presidentes de Israel y Palestina– para esta entrevista en exclusiva con “La Vanguardia”.
El Papa estaba contento de haber hecho todo lo posible por el entendimiento entre israelíes y palestinos.
La violencia en nombre de Dios domina Oriente Medio.
Es una contradicción. La violencia en nombre de Dios no se corresponde con nuestro tiempo. Es algo antiguo. Con perspectiva histórica hay que decir que los cristianos, a veces, la hemos practicado. Cuando pienso en la guerra de los Treinta Años, era violencia en nombre de Dios. Hoy es inimaginable, ¿verdad? Llegamos, a veces, por la religión a contradicciones muy serias, muy graves. El fundamentalismo, por ejemplo. Las tres religiones tenemos nuestros grupos fundamentalistas, pequeños en relación a todo el resto.
¿Y qué opina del fundamentalismo?
Un grupo fundamentalista, aunque no mate a nadie, aunque no le pegue a nadie, es violento. La estructura mental del fundamentalismo es violencia en nombre de Dios.
Algunos dicen de usted que es un revolucionario.
Deberíamos llamar a la gran Mina Mazzini, la cantante italiana, y decirle “prendi questa mano, zinga” y que me lea el pasado, a ver qué (risas). Para mí, la gran revolución es ir a las raíces, reconocerlas y ver lo que esas raíces tienen que decir el día de hoy. No hay contradicción entre revolucionario e ir a las raíces. Más aún, creo que la manera para hacer verdaderos cambios es la identidad. Nunca se puede dar un paso en la vida si no es desde atrás, sin saber de dónde vengo, qué apellido tengo, qué apellido cultural o religioso tengo.
Usted ha roto muchos protocolos de seguridad para acercarse a la gente.
Sé que me puede pasar algo, pero está en manos de Dios. Recuerdo que en Brasil me habían preparado un papamóvil cerrado, con vidrio, pero yo no puedo saludar a un pueblo y decirle que lo quiero dentro de una lata de sardinas, aunque sea de cristal. Para mí eso es un muro. Es verdad que algo puede pasarme, pero seamos realistas, a mi edad no tengo mucho que perder.
¿Por qué es importante que la Iglesia sea pobre y humilde?
La pobreza y la humildad están en el centro del Evangelio y lo digo en un sentido teológico, no sociológico. No se puede entender el Evangelio sin la pobreza, pero hay que distinguirla del pauperismo. Yo creo que Jesús quiere que los obispos no seamos príncipes, sino servidores.
¿Qué puede hacer la Iglesia para reducir la creciente desigualdad entre ricos y pobres?
Está probado que con la comida que sobra podríamos alimentar a la gente que tiene hambre. Cuando usted ve fotografías de chicos desnutridos en diversas partes del mundo se agarra la cabeza, no se entiende. Creo que estamos en un sistema mundial económico que no es bueno. En el centro de todo sistema económico debe estar el hombre, el hombre y la mujer, y todo lo demás debe estar al servicio de este hombre. Pero nosotros hemos puesto al dinero en el centro, al dios dinero. Hemos caído en un pecado de idolatría, la idolatría del dinero.
La economía se mueve por el afán de tener más y, paradójicamente, se alimenta una cultura del descarte. Se descarta a los jóvenes cuando se limita la natalidad. También se descarta a los ancianos porque ya no sirven, no producen, es clase pasiva… Al descartar a los chicos y a los ancianos, se descarta el futuro de un pueblo porque los chicos van a tirar con fuerza hacia adelante y porque los ancianos nos dan la sabiduría, tienen la memoria de ese pueblo y deben pasarla a los jóvenes. Y ahora también está de moda descartar a los jóvenes con la desocupación. A mí me preocupa mucho el índice de paro de los jóvenes, que en algunos países supera el 50%. Alguien me dijo que 75 millones de jóvenes europeos menores de 25 años están en paro. Es una barbaridad. Pero descartamos toda una generación por mantener un sistema económico que ya no se aguanta, un sistema que para sobrevivir debe hacer la guerra, como han hecho siempre los grandes imperios. Pero como no se puede hacer la Tercera Guerra Mundial, entonces se hacen guerras zonales. ¿ Y esto qué significa? Que se fabrican y se venden armas, y con esto los balances de las economías idolátricas, las grandes economías mundiales que sacrifican al hombre a los pies del ídolo del dinero, obviamente se sanean. Este pensamiento único nos quita la riqueza de la diversidad de pensamiento y por lo tanto la riqueza de un diálogo entre personas. La globalización bien entendida es una riqueza. Una globalización mal entendida es aquella que anula las diferencias. Es como una esfera, con todos los puntos equidistantes del centro. Una globalización que enriquezca es como un poliedro, todos unidos pero cada cual conservando su particularidad, su riqueza, su identidad, y esto no se da.
¿Le preocupa el conflicto entre Catalunya y España?
Toda división me preocupa. Hay independencia por emancipación y hay independencia por secesión. Las independencias por emancipación, por ejemplo, son las americanas, que se emanciparon de los estados europeos. Las independencias de pueblos por secesión es un desmembramiento a veces es muy obvio. Pensemos en la antigua Yugoslavia. Obviamente, hay pueblos con culturas tan diversas que ni con cola se podían pegar. El caso yugoslavo es muy claro, pero yo me pregunto si es tan claro en otros casos, en otros pueblos que hasta ahora han estado juntos. Hay que estudiar caso por caso. Escocia, la Padania, Catalunya Habrán casos que serán justos y casos que no serán justos, pero la secesión de una nación sin un antecedente de unidad forzosa hay que tomarla con muchas pinzas y analizarla caso por caso.
La oración por la paz del domingo no fue fácil de organizar ni tenía precedentes en Oriente Medio ni en el mundo. ¿Cómo se sintió usted?
Sabe que no fue fácil porque usted estaba en el ajo y se le debe gran parte del logro. Yo sentía que era algo que se nos escapa a todos. Acá, en el Vaticano, un 99% decía que no se iba a hacer y después el 1% fue creciendo. Yo sentía que nos veíamos empujados a una cosa que no se nos había ocurrido y que, poco a poco, fue tomando cuerpo. No era para nada un acto político –eso lo sentí de entrada– sino que era un acto religioso: abrir una ventana al mundo.
¿Por qué eligió meterse en el ojo del huracán que es Oriente Medio?
El verdadero ojo del huracán, por el entusiasmo que había, fue la Jornada Mundial de la Juventud de Río de Janeiro el año pasado. A Tierra Santa decidí ir porque el presidente Peres me invitó. Yo sabía que su mandato terminaba esta primavera, así que me vi obligado, de alguna manera, a ir antes. Su invitación precipitó el viaje. Yo no tenía pensando hacerlo.
¿Por qué es importante para todo cristiano visitar Jerusalén y Tierra Santa?
Por la revelación. Para nosotros, todo empezó ahí. Es como “el cielo en la tierra”. un adelanto de lo que nos espera en el más allá, en la Jerusalén celestial,
Usted y su amigo el rabino Skorka se abrazaron frente al muro de las Lamentaciones. ¿Qué importancia ha tenido este gesto para la reconciliación entre cristianos y judíos?
Bueno, en el Muro también estaba mi buen amigo el profesor Omar Abu, presidente del Instituto del Diálogo Interreligioso de Buenos Aires. Quise invitarlo. Es un hombre muy religioso, padre de dos hijos. También es amigo del rabino Skorka y los quiero a los dos un montón, y quise que esta amistad entre los tres se viera como un testimonio.
Me dijo hace un año que “dentro de cada cristiano hay un judío”.
Quizá lo más correcto sería decir que “usted no puede vivir su cristianismo, usted no puede ser un verdadero cristiano, si no reconoce su raíz judía”. No hablo de judío en el sentido semítico de raza sino en sentido religioso. Creo que el diálogo interreligioso tiene que ahondar en esto, en la raíz judía del cristianismo y en el florecimiento cristiano del judaísmo. Entiendo que es un desafío, una papa caliente, pero se puede hacer como hermanos. Yo rezo todos los días el oficio divino con los salmos de David. Los 150 salmos los pasamos en una semana. Mi oración es judía, y luego tengo la eucaristía, que es cristiana.
¿Cómo ve el antisemitismo?
No sabría explicar por qué se da, pero creo que está muy unido, en general, y sin que sea una regla fija, a las derechas. El antisemitismo suele anidar mejor en las corrientes políticas de derecha que de izquierda, ¿no? Y aún continúa. Incluso tenemos quien niega el holocausto, una locura.
Uno de sus proyectos es abrir los archivos del Vaticano sobre el holocausto.
Traerán mucha luz.
¿Le preocupa alguna cosa que pueda descubrirse?
En este tema lo que me preocupa es la figura de Pío XII, el papa que lideró la Iglesia durante la Segunda Guerra Mundial. Al pobre Pío XII le han tirado encima de todo. Pero hay que recordar que antes se lo veía como el gran defensor de los judíos. Escondió a muchos en los conventos de Roma y de otras ciudades italianas, y también en la residencia estival de Castel Gandolfo. Allí, en la habitación del Papa, en su propia cama, nacieron 42 nenes, hijos de los judíos y otros perseguidos allí refugiados. No quiero decir que Pío XII no haya cometido errores –yo mismo cometo muchos–, pero su papel hay que leerlo según el contexto de la época. ¿Era mejor, por ejemplo, que no hablara para que no mataran más judíos, o que lo hiciera? También quiero decir que a veces me da un poco de urticaria existencial cuando veo que todos se la toman contra la Iglesia y Pío XII, y se olvidan de las grandes potencias. ¿Sabe usted que conocían perfectamente la red ferroviaria de los nazis para llevar a los judíos a los campos de concentración? Tenían las fotos. Pero no bombardearon esas vías de tren. ¿Por qué? Sería bueno que habláramos de todo un poquito.
¿Usted se siente aún como un párroco o asume su papel de cabeza de la Iglesia?
La dimensión de párroco es la que más muestra mi vocación. Servir a la gente me sale de dentro. Apago la luz para no gastar mucha plata, por ejemplo. Son cosas que tiene un párroco. Pero también me siento Papa. Me ayuda a hacer las cosas con seriedad. Mis colaboradores son muy serios y profesionales. Tengo ayuda para cumplir con mi deber. No hay que jugar al papa párroco. Sería inmaduro. Cuando viene un jefe de Estado, tengo que recibirlo con la dignidad y el protocolo que se merece.
Es verdad que con el protocolo tengo mis problemas, pero hay que respetarlo.
Usted está cambiando muchas cosas. ¿Hacia qué futuro llevan estos cambios?
No soy ningún iluminado. No tengo ningún proyecto personal que me traje debajo del brazo, simplemente porque nunca pensé que me iban a dejar acá, en El Vaticano. Lo sabe todo el mundo. Me vine con una valija chiquita para volver enseguida a Buenos Aires. Lo que estoy haciendo es cumplir lo que los cardenales reflexionamos en las Congregaciones Generales, es decir, en las reuniones que, durante el cónclave, manteníamos todos los días para discutir los problemas de la Iglesia. De ahí salen reflexiones y recomendaciones. Una muy concreta fue que el próximo papa debía contar con un consejo exterior, es decir, con un equipo de asesores que no viviera en el Vaticano.
Y usted creó el llamado consejo de los Ocho.
Son ocho cardenales de todos los continentes y un coordinador. Se reúnen cada dos o tres meses acá. Ahora, el primero de julio tenemos cuatro días de reunión, y vamos haciendo los cambios que los mismos cardenales nos piden. No es obligatorio que lo hagamos pero sería imprudente no escuchar a los que saben.
También ha hecho un gran esfuerzo para acercarse a la Iglesia ortodoxa.
La ida a Jerusalén de mi hermano Bartolomé I era para conmemorar el encuentro de 50 años atrás entre Pablo VI y Atenágoras I. Fue un encuentro después de más de mil años de separación. Desde el Concilio Vaticano II, la Iglesia católica hace los esfuerzos de acercarse y la Iglesia ortodoxa lo mismo. Con algunas iglesias ortodoxas hay más cercanía que otras. Quise que Bartolomé I tuviera conmigo en Jerusalén y allí surgió el plan de que viniera también a la oración del Vaticano. Para él fue un paso arriesgado porque se lo pueden echar en cara, pero había que estrechar este gesto de humildad, y para nosotros es necesario porque no se concibe que los cristianos estemos divididos, es un pecado histórico que tenemos que reparar.
Ante el avance del ateísmo, ¿qué opina de la gente que cree que la ciencia y la religión son excluyentes?
Hubo un avance del ateísmo en la época más existencial, quizás sartriana. Pero después vino un avance hacia búsquedas espirituales, de encuentro con Dios, en mil maneras, no necesariamente las religiosas tradicionales. El enfrentamiento entre ciencia y fe tuvo su auge en la Ilustración, pero que hoy no está tan de moda, gracias a Dios, porque nos hemos dado cuenta todos de la cercanía que hay entre una cosa y la otra. El papa Benedicto XVI tiene un buen magisterio sobre la relación entre ciencia y fe. En líneas generales, lo más actual es que los científicos sean muy respetuosos con la fe y el científico agnóstico o ateo diga “no me atrevo a entrar en ese campo”.
Usted ha conocido a muchos jefes de Estado.
Han venido muchos y es interesante la variedad. Cada cual tiene su personalidad. Me ha llamado la atención un hecho transversal entre los políticos jóvenes, ya sean de centro, izquierda o derecha. Quizás hablen de los mismos problemas pero con una nueva música, y eso me gusta, me da esperanza porque la política es una de las formas más elevadas del amor, de la caridad. ¿Por qué? Porque lleva al bien común, y una persona que, pudiendo hacerlo, no se involucra en política por el bien común, es egoísmo; o que use la política para el bien propio, es corrupción. Hace unos quince años los obispos franceses escribieron una carta pastoral que es una reflexión con el título “Réhabiliter la politique”. Es un texto precioso hace darte cuenta de todas estas cosas.
¿Qué opina de la renuncia de Benedicto XVI?
El papa Benedicto ha hecho un gesto muy grande. Ha abierto una puerta, ha creado una institución, la de los eventuales papas eméritos. Hace 70 años, no había obispos eméritos. ¿Hoy cuántos hay? Bueno, como vivimos más tiempo, llegamos a una edad donde no podemos seguir adelante con las cosas. Yo haré lo mismo que él, pedirle al Señor que me ilumine cuando llegue el momento y que me diga lo que tengo que hacer, y me lo va a decir seguro.
Tiene una habitación reservada en una casa de retiro en Buenos Aires.
Sí, en una casa de retiro de sacerdotes ancianos. Yo dejaba el arzobispado a finales del año pasado y ya había presentado la renuncia al papa Benedicto cuando cumplí 75 años. Elegí una pieza y dije “quiero venir a vivir acá”. Trabajaré como cura, ayudando a las parroquias. Ése iba a ser mi futuro antes de ser papa.
No le voy a preguntar a quién apoya en el Mundial…
Los brasileros me pidieron neutralidad (ríe) y cumplo con mi palabra porque siempre Brasil y Argentina son antagónicos.
¿Cómo le gustaría que le recordara la historia?
No lo he pensado, pero me gusta cuando uno recuerda a alguien y dice: “Era un buen tipo, hizo lo que pudo, no fue tan malo”. Con eso me conformo.
—
Fonte: http://www.atrio.org/2014/06/entrevista-del-papa-francisco-a-la-vanguardia/#more-10136
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